Eeyores News and View

Holiness vs. Separation
Should we live Separated from the World?

In everything there are extremes. In politics you have the Liberals versus the Conservatives. In lifestyles you have the Hippies versus the Amish. For every position there is an opposite view that goes to the extreme. In Christianity there are those who say we should have no part with the world and those who claim we need to be like them to win them. Which is the correct stand?
The first question that needs answered is: “Does God want us separated from the world?” The answer is relatively simple to locate. In Galatians 1:4 the Apostle Paul tells us that we needed delivered from what he calls “this present evil world.” Furthermore, in John 17:11-17 Jesus tells us that we are to be in the world but not of the world. John himself lets us know in his first epistle that we are not to love the world neither the things in the world. (1 John 2:15-17) Meanwhile James really lays it on, revealing that “the friendship of the world is enmity with God.” Jude says we should even hate the garment that is “spotted by the flesh.”
I think we would have to be pretty naive to deny that the world is extremely vile. But we would have to be blatantly dishonest to pretend that God doesn’t want His children to separate themselves from the ways and values of “this present evil world.” To be honest in this chapter, we need to determine just what “the world” is.
What is “the World”?
The world is not a friend of God nor His people. It is a number of things that are all anti-God. If we can determine what “the world” is we can have some idea of the direction we should be going as representatives of Christ.

1. “The World” is the wrong morals
It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the world and the Bible are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to morals. The world sees nothing wrong with pre-marital sex, adultery or homosexuality. All of which are condemned fiercely in Scripture. Yet the world does not rest with its acceptance of loose living. It promotes it evangelistically in school and college classrooms, books, films and even in the newspapers. Furthermore, the world is so unrelenting in its rebellion against its Creator that it regularly promotes the vilest of men as hero figures. Men like Hugh Hefner, Bob Guzzione, Larry Flynt, Howard Stern and others of their ilk should be driven from the public eye by the righteous railing of the news media. But instead, that very media is a partner in crime with these monuments of immorality.
Films, news magazines and television programs not only show as much nakedness and immorality as they can but they actively promote such acts as “normal,” “good” and “healthy.” When the most vile man ever to occupy the White House, turned it instead into a whorehouse, the News Mafia was right there not only defending him but murdering anyone who stood against him.
Then if we are to be unlike the world, it is easy to say that we should take note of its moral depravation and be just the opposite.

2. “The World” is the wrong music
Music originated as a medium through which man could glorify God. Throughout Scripture we find it being used over and over to exalt and magnify Him. This music was directed at the spirit of man. It was designed to help man fulfill Revelation 4:11 in an extraordinary way.
But as the world degenerated music went along with it. Soon we heard about “soul” music. And that’s just what it was. Rather than having God as its focal point as the music of the spirit, (the classics) it made sinful Man the center of attention. From there, music has been reduced to the sensual. It is now directed at the body. It is thundered out without depth in either the tune or lyrics by mangy looking beings, whose language and gyrations while performing, violate every form of decency. The beat is toxic, the words offensive and the performers are repulsive. Both they and their by-product are happily anti-God.
Again, only a diabolical person would try to assimilate such abhorrent clatter into our churches in the name of worship. It has nothing to do with God and is even a proud trademark of the forces of the anti-Christian lifestyle.
So it should be obvious to an honest heart that anyone claiming to love the God of creation should want to separate themselves from this fountain of contamination.

3. “The World” is the wrong education
Worldly education is as aggressive against God as is worldly music. Education is not aimed at equipping a young scholar to glorify God. It is instead designed to harden the young heart against its Creator. The fantasy of “evolution” is blatantly taught as though scientific evidence upheld it. “Values clarification” is used to drive the last vestiges of morality from the hearts and minds of innocent young victims. The God that made this country great is no longer allowed to be mentioned in the classroom. Christianity is held in disdain by teacher and student alike. Today’s educational system is no friend of God...or its student body.
Therefore we should know to be wary of the leavening influences of public education.

4. “The World” is the wrong goals
The world focuses its praise on vain and inconsequential things. Sports figures are represented as though they were important to life. Someone who can shoot a basket, hit a home run or score a touchdown is upheld for all to glorify. Talent is exalted higher than the great Creator who bestowed the attribute. To this crowd the least important vocation on earth is preaching, even though a poor, ineffective minister does more good than the greatest basketball player.
So we as Christians should be careful not to incorporate the world’s misguided values into our own lives. Sports are a source of minor enjoyment but be careful not to take them too seriously.
Style and fashion are two more worldly distractions that can keep a Christian wasting his energy and resources. Nothing is more shamelessly vain than fashion. And nothing is funnier than watching some vain idiot with a sweater tied around his neck because the god of fashion told him that it was the “in” thing to do. Worrying about being in style is far less important than worrying about being in step with God.
A Christian who spends his time and money trying to keep up with the latest fashion is guaranteed to waste his time and money on frivolous things of no substantial value. So we, as God’s people, should not be putting too much emphasis on keeping in step with fashion.
Another misguided goal of the world is environmentalism. It must be noted that the goal of environmentalism is not to “save the earth.” Environmentalists are people who have an emotional relationship with dirt. I should imagine a person would have to have failed miserably at every emotional relation in life to feel compelled to turn to the relative safety of dirt. Environmentalists are misdirected in several ways. First, they focus their time and efforts trying to please a non-living entity, the earth. The earth has life on it but it is not alive itself. But environmentalists feel very righteous as a result of this love affair with dirt. Of course, loving dirt is a very safe relationship because dirt has never been known to have rejected anyone. In fact, from the seedy look that most environmentalists have, it is probably good that dirt is dead and can’t reject them or they would fail at that relationship too! Environmentalists have turned their desire to please away from God and toward the ground. This is extremely displeasing to the holy God Who made it and them.
But American environmentalism is even worse. The solitary goal of environmentalism is the destruction of the American economy. Most environmentalists are loyal subscribers to the goal of having a one world government. A strong America is the greatest single hindrance there is to that goal. Therefore, it is imperative that America be brought down to the economic level of a third world country. Every objective of environmentalists is to injure the American economy. They couldn’t care less about the environment. How do you know? In 1991 Saddam Hussein dumped raw crude oil into the Persian Gulf and set hundreds of oil wells afire. The damage to the Persian Gulf was magnitudes worse than the measly Exxon Valdez incident. Yet, just like the arch-liberal N.O.W. organization during Bill Clinton’s abuse of Monica Lewinsky, environmentalists were mute to this. They should have condemned Hussein as being very near to Adolf Hitler for his vicious attack on their “mother”. Yet they were silent. Why? Because they don’t care about the environment. They only care about financially shackling the American economy.

So we see that environmentalism is a hateful, dishonest product of the world. Yet many new converts have been deceived into thinking it is a worthy endeavor. No Christ loving Christian should be involved in the pagan rituals of environmentalism.

The World. The perfect “Bad Example”
There is a joke about a man who is such a wretched drunkard that his wife has left him, his children are ashamed of him, he can’t hold a job, his health is broken and he is lying in a gutter, homeless. But, instead of being depressed, he enthuses, “My life’s not a total waste. I can always be used as a bad example!”
The same can be said of the world. It can always be used as a bad example. If a young Christian is uncertain of how they should live their new life they can always look at the world...and go in the opposite direction. Yet today many of these very misguided goals are being espoused by our churches. And usually in the name of soul winning. The morality of our culture has been plunged to new depths by public education and the entertainment world. (world?) In order to attempt to draw these casualties of character in, some churches have turned to contemporary “Christian” music. They have heralded environmentalism as a mandatory tenant of the Christian faith. And fashion is alive and well in most Sunday morning style shows.
The new Christian should be hearing messages designed to free their minds of these wayward ideals. They should hear that their solitary purpose for being here is to be a pleasure to their Creator.

Close, but Not Quite
Some groups in Christianity recognize this trend and reject it zealously. They are called “Separationists” (“Legalists” to anyone looking for an excuse not to separate from the world.) Their favorite verse of Scripture is 2 Corinthians 6:17, Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,... These folks definitely believe in separation. They have “convictions” about the length of a man’s hair, the length of a woman’s hair, the proper dress for each of the sexes, marriage and divorce, where to buy your groceries and just about anything else you can think of and some that you couldn’t think of. I have seen where two pages of rules and standards had to be fulfilled before a teenager could attend a church function. Mind you, this is far better than the free-for-all that goes on in the modernist churches. But it does get a little overbearing at times.
Are the Separationists wrong? Let’s say that they are in the right church but the wrong pew. Basically, most Separationists are militantly determined not to be corrupted by the world. They fully recognize the innate wickedness in the world system and would rather die than have it invade either their families or churches. They are steadfastly turned away from the world. Ever looking back to make sure that it does not overtake and thus pollute them. For them the easiest way to curtail the influence of the world is with what has become known as “Checklist Christianity.” You can always tell when you meet a separationist because they feel compelled to “check you out.” It won’t take long before they’ll be asking you questions like, “Do you go to movies?” “Do you believe in mixed bathing?”, “What’s your stand on marriage and divorce?” Fail to agree on one point and you’ll probably get a sermon on that subject. Failure on two and you shouldn’t hold your breath waiting for them to invite you out for fellowship. Miss too many answers and you’ll probably be anathematized and be the subject of a sermon!

Behold I show you a Better Way
Separation from the world is good. It is always good. Even if it is for the wrong reason or through the wrong manner. But we are not called to just be separated from a corrupt world system. We are called to be “saints”! (Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:2) Saints are more than just separated from the world. They are to be holy.
When a Christian realizes that they are here with the sole purpose of being a pleasure to the Lord they will examine their life for things that the Lord would find unsavory. We’re not to run from the world. We are to run to the Lord.
When you love someone you desire to please them. You find out what they like and do it. You find out what they don’t like and don’t do it. It’s that simple.
If we love the Lord we should also want to please Him. We should find what He likes and do it. We happen to know that the Lord wants to be worshiped for the great God that He is. What is the best way to worship Him? Forget your petty opinion and prejudice. God wrote down what He wants in His Book.

1 Chronicles 16:29
Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

Psalm 29:2
Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

Psalm 96:9
O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.

Has a “light” come on yet? Do you have any idea of something you could add to your life that would be a pleasure to your Creator and help you fulfill your obligation of Revelation 4:11? If not, let’s see if this will “flip your switch.”

1. Our bodies are to be holy - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

(Romans 12:1)

2. The church is to be holy - That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph. 5:27)

3. We are to be holy as individuals - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph. 1:4)

4. Our women are to be holy - There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. (1 Cor. 7:34)

5. The Pastors are to be holy - But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; (Titus 1:8)

6. The results of personal holiness -

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. (Col. 3:12_15)

7. He wants us holy at our presentation to Him in Heaven -

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: (Col. 1:21, 22)

Now let’s look at these areas and see how establishing holiness in our lives will not only be a pleasure to God but will take care of the concerns of separation without a list.

1. Our bodies are to be holy - Forget about somebody telling you, “You can’t do that.” or, “You’re not allowed to do that anymore.” Instead ask yourself questions such as:

“How can my body be holy if I put liqueur in it?”

“How can my body be holy if I smoke?”

“How can my body be holy if I watch, read or listen to filth?”

“How can my body be holy if I............?”

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that answering those simple questions will keep you clear of wicked , unclean or just questionable practices as you strive to be holy rather than comply with somebody’s list.

2. The church is to be holy - The church, the body of Christ, is made up of individual believers. How can it be holy if we are not?
The church, local, should not only be holy due to the actions of its individual members but should be the prime mover in directing and instructing Christians to be holy.

3. We are to be holy as individuals - Just as there are questions to ask concerning the body there are questions to ask concerning us, the soul.

“How can I be holy and gossip?”

“How can I be holy and try to hurt a fellow Christian?”

“How can I be holy and be concerned only with exalting myself?”

“How can I be holy and split a church or destroy a preacher?”

“How can I be holy and do....that?”

These soul searching questions will do far more to prevent havoc in a church than all the sermons on “Touch not God’s anointed!” in the world.

4. Our women are to be holy - God made women special. They are wonderful. They are a gift from God. Because they are special to Him, He pays special attention to them in the area of holiness. Their questions may go like this:

“How can I be holy in body and in spirit and wear revealing clothing?”

“How can I be holy in body and in spirit and dress like a man?”

“How can I be holy in body and in spirit and act like a man?”

“How can I be holy in body and in spirit and not desire to please the Lord?”

Forget about “legalism”. Being holy for God will transform the hardest woman into a delicate treasure of God’s grace. I’ve seen it!

5. The Pastors are to be holy - Preachers are called of God and as such carry a much greater burden for holiness. He should ask:

“How can I be holy and touch a woman in a sensual manner?”

“How can I be holy and try to destroy a fellow minister?”

“How can I be holy and visit that Website?”

“How can I be holy and do ungodly things when I’m where no one knows me?”

“How can I be holy and be motivated to exalt only myself?”

6. The personal results of holiness - Well what do you know? We do have a list! But it isn’t a list of “Don’ts”. It is rather a list similar to those found in Romans and 2 Peter as gauges of our spiritual growth. Accomplishing holiness in our lives will also result in the additional benefits of: mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, a longsuffering attitude, forbearance, a forgiving attitude and, of course, charity.
Look how far into Christian maturity the addition of this one spiritual attribute will take you. Can you imagine what pleasure it must be for the Lord to see these properties blossom in the life of one of His children? There is so much more to the Christian life than just soul winning.

7. He wants us holy at our presentation to Him in Heaven - Notice that the passage eludes to the fact that we started this life as enemies and aliens. Yet through salvation in Christ and years of spiritual growth we can be a pleasure to our Creator in a multitude of different ways. But wait! Time and again in the Old Testament we see that a man who had been a good king failed the Lord late in his life. Imagine having lived a life in a holy manner for years, decades in fact, and then, one time an opportunity to be impure comes up that, due to weakness or some other emotional low point, we suddenly find ourselves tempted to surrender to. Think of the years wasted if we indulge.

I know you want to be holy when you are finally presented to Him in eternity. Don’t give in to weakness this late in the game.

In the previous chapter we looked at attributes that need to be added to the Christian life. Let’s take a moment to review them, adding the benefits of holiness.

1. Patience

2. Experience

3. Hope

4. Faith

5. Virtue

6. Knowledge

7. Temperance

8. Godliness

9. Brotherly kindness

10. Charity

11. Mercies

12. Kindness

13. Humbleness of mind

14. Meekness

15. A longsuffering attitude

16. Forbearance

17. A forgiving attitude

Isn’t it amazing! We end up with a list after all. But it’s not a list of things to be removed from your life. It is a list of things to be added to your life. And if these attributes are successfully incorporated into your personality over the years you will more than succeed at fulfilling anyone’s list of “Don’ts”.
The Highest Goal of all
There is great value to separationism. It will, if only by brute force, prevent some Christians from drifting into sin. But, in spite of this separation it will not produce holiness in the individual. That takes years of being submerged in the Bible and walking circumspectly. And the best part about holiness is that the benefits that we receive from it are incidental. For holiness in us is pleasure to God.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/gipp_for-pleas_ch5.html

God-less 'congregations' planned for humanists
CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts — The monthly schedule is church-like, with its parenting classes, guest speakers and small group meetings to hash out shared beliefs. But God isn't part of this Cambridge congregation.
Greg Epstein, the humanist chaplain at Harvard University, is building a God-free model of community that he hopes helps humanists increase in numbers and influence across the United States.
Epstein sees potential in research showing that there are a growing number of people in the United States with no religion. In the latest American Religious Identification Survey, released this month, 15% of respondents in 2008 said they had no religion, compared to 8.2% in 1990. Epstein believes that group includes large numbers of people who are humanist, but have never identified themselves that way and can be reached.
At the same time, there is broader acceptance of those with no faith, as indicated by President Barack Obama's mention of "nonbelievers" in his inaugural address, Epstein said.
Definitions of humanism vary. Generally, humanists reject belief in the supernatural and are guided by reason, experience and compassion for others. Epstein defines the philosophy as a commitment to living ethical, personally fulfilling lives while serving the greater good.
Epstein wants to create local humanist centers nationwide that perform many of the community-building functions of a church, only in service of the humanist creed. He will promote his idea as he tours the country to promote his book, "Good Without God," which is scheduled to be published by HarperCollins in the U.S. later this year. Epstein will receive assistance and funding from groups such as the American Humanist Association and the Secular Student Alliance, which have chapters they hope to strengthen and multiply.
"There are so many millions of people out there who basically share our views, that we've got room for everybody," Epstein said. "What we're doing here has got to grow even more."
Raised as a Reform Jew, Epstein studied Taoism and Buddhism before he became a humanist. He earned a master's degree in Judaic studies from the University of Michigan and a master's of theological studies from Harvard Divinity School. In 2005, he was ordained as a rabbi by the International Institute for Secular Humanistic Judaism. The movement says it combines reason, human experience, Jewish culture and ethical insights from Jewish tradition.

While many humanists reject anything that hints at organized religion, Epstein is freely borrowing from it — from the "small group" format familiar in evangelical churches to calling his group a "congregation."
Paul Kurtz, founder of the Council for Secular Humanism, disagrees with that approach, saying humanists are building secular communities that show people don't need religion to get together "in a joyful mood and do good works." But that's undermined when religious words are used to describe those communities.
"I don't think we should use the language of religion, that's very confusing," Kurtz said.
Though he supports Epstein, Fred Edwords of the American Humanist Association questions whether a large, untapped pool of potential humanists exists who would join congregations.
"This is a new mission field, if you will, but are those vineyards ripe for the picking?" Edwords said. "I haven't seen sufficient evidence of it."
Still, both men agree that more humanist communities are needed, for mutual support and to offset isolation humanists often feel.
Jenni Acosta, a humanist from Newton, Massachusetts, who is part of the Harvard humanist parenting group, said the group gives her needed support, and shows her 6-year-old and 10-year-old daughters that other children are being raised the same way. Acosta, 36, said she deals with family and friends who challenge her on how she can raise her kids without the moral guidance a faith provides.
"I think it's reassuring to all of us to know that we're there for each other and there's other examples of people doing it and their kids seem to be turning out OK," Acosta said.
The parenting group started in December and meets monthly with about 10 families. Acosta says trips to museums and a parenting course called "Compassionate Communication" are planned. The Harvard chaplaincy also hosts "Humanist Small Group" biweekly Sunday brunch discussion and buys drinks at biweekly "Humanist Community Pub Nights." Last month, it hosted holiday-style celebrations around Charles Darwin's 200th birthday and is hosting a talk by humanist writer and director Joss Whedon of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" fame.
Richard Lints, a professor of philosophical theology at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, a prominent evangelical school in Hamilton, Massachusetts, said the humanist desire for greater community is understandable. He believes God "hard-wired" humans to need it.
But he said he doubts humanism can sustain itself in the local congregations Epstein envisions because community is not a natural part of humanism, where the individual is the ultimate source of meaning. If humanism becomes concerned with the "greater good," and a sort of natural moral order that implies, it starts to resemble religion and humanists will back away, he said.
"At the heart of the humanist project is deep individualism," Lints said. "It's always going to be difficult to sustain a real robust community."
To those who say it can't be done, Epstein points to his community at Harvard, and nonstop requests for more services, as a rebuttal. He believes humanists are responsible to make sure their community grows more.
"Salvation is here on earth," he said. "We have evolved over 14 billion years without purpose. Now we want purpose, we need to build it into our own lives."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-20-humanists_N.htm

Ramos, Compean say prayers held them up
Tell talk show host Glenn Beck letters also lifted spirits
Former U.S. Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, who were given long jail terms for shooting at a fleeing drug smuggler, today told Fox News Channel host Glenn Beck that they were sustained by prayers of the American people and their spirits were lifted by their letters.
The two were interviewed on Beck's program in their first television interview allowed under the terms of their probation after President Bush commuted their sentences on his last day in office. They just were released from ankle bracelet restrictions and still face limits on with whom they can talk.
One of the restrictions is that the two cannot talk to each other after they each spent about two years of their decade-long sentences in jail. Beck interviewed them separately.
Ramos said what was important was "knowing that so many people were supporting us, receiving their letters, their prayers. I can't thank everybody enough."
A few minutes later, Compean echoed the statement.
"A lot of prayers from people really helped," Compean said.
Ramos said the American people, do, in fact, have a voice in their nation.
"Me sitting here today proves that," he said.
After serving two years in federal prison in solitary confinement for shooting a fleeing Mexican drug smuggler who had brought 750 pounds of marijuana into the U.S., Ramos and Compean were released from prison a month ago, with home confinement until today ordered by the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
Patty Compean told Beck on his television show at her husband's release that her family needed time to spend with Jose before participating in interviews.
"They've been in solitary confinement without any human contact except for the guards and visitors for two years," she told WND when she first learned of the commutation. "Things have changed. Jose's been gone for two years. That's a lot to take in."
Ramos's attorney, David Botsford, said the families are still waiting for a decision from the Supreme Court on the cases.
"We've asked the Supreme Court to review the convictions on the remaining counts that the Fifth Circuit had not set aside because it's our goal to vindicate these gentlemen entirely and get them back on the job with law enforcement, which is what their dreams and their goals and their careers have been."
Asked when he really would feel free, Compean said the court case needed to be resolved.
In an interview with Beck when the agents were released, Rep. Ted Poe, R-Texas, summarized a number of falsehoods Congress had been told about the border agents' case.
"We were told that these two border agents went out that day to shoot an illegal, which is an absolute lie," he said. "We were also told that they knew that the drug dealer was unarmed. That is a lie. They both believed him to be armed. But, most importantly, the U.S. attorney's office told us … that the drug dealer didn't bring in drugs a second time. … I figured out that was a lie, too."
The congressman continued, "Both these individuals were political prisoners. We want to get to the bottom of what the involvement of the Mexican government was in prosecuting these two guys."
Poe said he believes there's a real problem on both sides of the border and that this was the only case in which the U.S. attorney's office went on a "nationwide Madison Avenue PR stunt" to justify prosecution.
"It just seems like there's a rat in the room," Poe said. "And we want to get rid of it."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=92405

Ill. pastor deflected gunshot with Bible
Jim Suhr ASSOCIATED PRESSMonday, March 9, 2009
MARYVILLE, Ill. (AP) -- A suburban St. Louis pastor shot and killed during his Sunday sermon deflected the first of the gunman's four rounds with a Bible, sending a confetti-like spray of paper into the air in a horrifying scene parishioners at first thought was a skit, police said.
The gunman strode down the aisle of the sprawling brick First Baptist Church shortly after 8 a.m., exchanged words with the Rev. Fred Winters and began firing a .45 caliber semiautomatic pistol until the gun jammed and parishioners wrestled him to the ground, said Illinois State Police Director Larry Trent.
"We thought it was part of a drama skit...when he shot, what you saw was confetti," said parishioner Linda Cunningham, whose husband is a minister of adult education at the church. "We just sat there waiting for what comes next not realizing that he had wounded the pastor."
Two parishioners then tackled the gunman as he brandished a four-inch knife, and all three suffered stab wounds, Trent said. The gunman and one victim were flown to a St. Louis hospital, where both underwent surgery. The other victim was treated for slash wounds and released.
"Things like this just don't happen in Maryville," Mayor Larry Gulledge said. "We've lost one the pillars of our community, one of our leaders."
Authorities didn't know whether Winters, a married father of two who had led the church for nearly 22 years, and the gunman knew each other, though no one at the church seemed to recognize him. Police described the gunman as a 27-year-old from nearby Troy but would not release his name pending possible charges.
"We don't know the relationship (between the gunman and pastor), why he's here or what the circumstances came about that caused him in the first place to be here," said Illinois State Police Master Trooper Ralph Timmins.
The Rev. Mark Jones, another First Baptist pastor, said he briefly saw the gunman before a weapon was pulled. Jones then walked to an adjacent room and did not see the shooting, though he heard a sound like miniature fire crackers.
"We have no idea what this guy's motives were," Jones said outside the church. "We don't know if we'll ever know that."
Trent did not have details of Winters' conversation with the gunman.
"Right now all we know is that the suspect said something to the pastor and the pastor said something back," he said.
Winters was pronounced dead on arrival at Anderson Hospital in Maryville, said hospital spokeswoman Natalie Head.
The gunman and one stabbing victim, 39-year-old Terry Bullard, were treated at St. Louis University Hospital, said spokeswoman Laura Keller. Bullard underwent surgery for stab wounds and was in serious condition Sunday, she said.
Keller said the gunman underwent surgery Sunday afternoon but could not provide his name or detail his condition or injuries.
The other victim, Keith Melton, was treated and released from Gateway Regional Medical Center, said spokeswoman Kate Allaria. A man who answered the phone at a listing for Keith Melton in Troy identified himself as Melton's stepson and said Melton had been stabbed but was going to be fine.
First Baptist had an average attendance of 32 people when Winters became senior pastor in 1987; it now has about 1,200 members, according to the church's Web site. Winters also was former president of the Illinois Baptist State Association and an adjunct professor for Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, according to the site.
"Our great God is not surprised by this, or anything," Nate Adams, executive director of the Illinois Baptist State Association, said in a statement. "That He allows evil and free will to have their way in tragedies like this is a mystery in many ways."
The church sits along a busy two-lane highway on the east side of Maryville, a fast-growing village of more than 7,000 about 20 miles northeast of St. Louis. A farm sits directly across from church, but subdivisions of newer homes can been easily seen from every side.
Parishioner Sharla Dryden, 62, pulled into the church parking lot for a 9:30 a.m. service Sunday to see "just a lot of chaos, lot of police, fire, and people just devastated."
"They just said there had been a shooting," Dryden said. "I would have been devastated if anyone had been shot, but to hear it was the pastor was terrible. You just never expect this to happen at a church."
Last month, a man shot and killed himself in front of a cross inside televangelist Robert H. Schuller's Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, Calif. In November, a gunman killed his estranged wife in a New Jersey church vestibule as Sunday services let out.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/09/1-dead-illinois-church-shooting/

TESTING THE FAITH
Suit claims recognition of God violates lawBrief challenges plan to stop acknowledging prayer--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted: March 21, 200912:15 am Eastern© 2009 WorldNetDaily A court should reject arguments from those who seek "relentless extirpation" of any reference to religion in public life, according to a brief submitted in opposition to a Wisconsin lawsuit that challenges the National Day of Prayer. The lawsuit was filed by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which asserted the law that sets the first Thursday in May as "National Day of Prayer" should be declared in violation of the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution. The case pending in a Wisconsin court now, however, has drawn the attention of the American Center for Law and Justice, the ACLJ, which submitted a friend-of-the-court brief asking for the case to be dismissed. The ACLJ's filing includes a list 60 pages long of presidential and other proclamations recognizing America's need for a "day of prayer" and said the concept was adopted even as the U.S. was being created as a nation. "At the end of the years 1777, 1781 and 1782 the Continental Congress recommended that the states set apart a day for prayer and thanksgiving. At the Constitutional Convention itself, Benjamin Franklin urged that 'prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business," the ACLJ argued. It was George Washington who offered the first presidential proclamation urging a "day of public thanksgiving and prayer." He said "it is in an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience," the filing argued. "This is another twisted legal attempt to remove prayer from public life," said the ACLJ's director, Jay Sekulow. "The fact is that a day set aside for prayer for the country is a time-honored tradition woven into the very fabric of our nation. "From the time of our Founding Fathers to the present day, such proclamations and observances reflects the nation's rich history. The courts have been clear on this issue: there is no constitutional crisis here. We're hopeful that the court will take the only action appropriate in this case and dismiss this lawsuit," he said. The brief said the U.S. Supreme Court already has addressed the dispute, too. "In 'Marsh v. Chambers,' the United States Supreme Court conducted a searching examination of the nation's history when considering a challenge to the Nebraska state legislature's practice of opening its session with prayer by a paid chaplain. Upholding the practice, the court held that 'historical evidence sheds light not only on what the draftsmen intended the Establishment Clause to mean, but also on how they thought that Clause applied to the practice authorized by the First Congress – their actions reveal their intent.'" In its brief filed with the court in Madison, Wis., the ACLJ represents itself and 31 members of the 111th Congress, including Rep. J. Randy Forbes, R-Va., who chairs the Congressional Prayer Caucus. Other members of Congress represented are Robert B. Aderholt, Michele Bachmann, Roscoe G. Bartlett, John A. Boehner, John Boozman, Eric Cantor, K. Michael Conaway, Mary Fallin, Virginia Foxx, Trent Franks, Scott Garrett, Louie Gohmert, Wally Herger, Peter Hoekstra, Walter B. Jones, Jim Jordan, Doug Lamborn, Thaddeus G. McCotter, Patrick T. McHenry, Mike McIntyre, Jeff Miller, Sue Wilkins Myrick, Randy Neugebauer, Pete Olson, Mike Pence, Joseph R. Pitts, Heath Shuler, Adrian Smith, Lamar Smith and Joe Wilson. "Even the drafter of the First Amendment, James Madison, issued four proclamations in the early 1800's calling the nation to a day of prayer," the ACLJ noted. The ACLJ contends that the "strategy to purge all religious observances and references from American public life must not be indulged." The ACLJ's brief can be read here. http://www.aclj.org/media/pdf/ACLJAmicibrief-Final.pdfWND columnist Jonathan Falwell addressed the concerns in a column. "The problem with this lawsuit, as I see it, is that America has a rich history of honoring God. From our nation's very first inaugural address by George Washington – in which he requested that the Bible be opened to Deuteronomy chapter 28 – we see the tradition of publicly paying tribute to God," he wrote. "George Washington understood that this nation is a gift from the Sovereign God, and he recognized the need for the nation to honor Him. 'It is the duty of all nations,' Washington said, 'to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God and to obey His will,'" Falwell wrote. "We must fight to preserve our history, my friends, because there are those who want to ignore and destroy it," he said.
http://frc4u.org/phpbb/index.php?topic=558.msg953;topicseen#new